Curse

Rychek · Jan 30, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Without Flurry
____________

If

1 second (swing time)
50 dmg (Average damage per hit, arbitrary number)

Then

3000 dmg per minute
1 energy per second (zealous)
60 energy per minute(zealous)
480 healed per minute/hpm (+Live Vicariously) 960 Hpm (+Vigorous Spirit)

With Flurry
_________

If

.66 seconds(-33% swing time)
37 dmg (-25% dmg)

Then

3363 damage per minute (modifier of 1.121 for you eve online fans)
56.05 dmg per second
1.5 energy per second (zealous)
90 energy per minute (zealous)
727 hps (+Live Vicariously) 1454 hps (+Vigorous Spirit) = 24hp per second

Of course flurry requires:
60(seconds)/5(seconds)=12 casts per minute
12*5(energy)=60 energy per minute + 10 energy for vigorous
70 energy per minute leaving 20 per minute for skills (cyclone axe would be good with all the + on hit enchants and would prob add alot or energy and hp to the total thats not otherwise included in the numbers above)

So while using it with zealous will net you -30 energy per minute, +494 hpm, 363 damage per minute, and alot of adrenaline.

effective? to some extent. Overall I think there are better builds out there, Im putting this one on the shelf until I get some better ideas for how to manipulate the increase in speed.

why did I post all this? I had figured it out for myself and thought there was no reason not to post it up. I didn't double check most of these numbers so if anyone wants to correct something or add something, that would be appreciated.

Murder In China · Jan 30, 2006, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Swing time is 1.33 seconds without flurry, and you forgot to factor in mana regeneration.

Detrius · Jan 30, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

One important thing you missed is that you will gain adrenaline 33% faster too.

Amsterdam · Jan 30, 2006, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detrius

One important thing you missed is that you will gain adrenaline 33% faster too.

True, and with lots of builds the point of flurry is to build up adrenal skills quickly. When you are an adrenaline based build it sucks waiting while you chop chop chop away slowly and the enemy keeps healing, while you use flurry you might not do as much damage but then you can string out 4 adrenal skills and its game over for the opponent.

Rychek · Jan 30, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amsterdam

True, and with lots of builds the point of flurry is to build up adrenal skills quickly. When you are an adrenaline based build it sucks waiting while you chop chop chop away slowly and the enemy keeps healing, while you use flurry you might not do as much damage but then you can string out 4 adrenal skills and its game over for the opponent.

Well I did mention it, I just didn't do the numbers because Im not exactly clear on what they are. Is it 1 per hit?

I should have mentioned that my thought on flurry were in a pve situation as well.

Rychek · Jan 30, 2006, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murder In China

Swing time is 1.33 seconds without flurry, and you forgot to factor in mana regeneration.

swing time for which weapon?

Mana regeneration would effect the situation but Im not sure it would effect anything dealing with the difference in situations, which was the goal.

Lightbulb · Jan 30, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Yes but thats the point the calculation shows you do MORE damage per minute...

This obviously only affect things which take a minute to kill. A graph would might be useful here as you could see the point whwre one overtake the other.

Ok so:

Normal damage = X, Normal swing time = 1.33
Say a standard period is 6 swings thats 8 seconds. We will use 8 seconds as the base.

So in a standard period you will deal 6X damage, using no energy.

-------

Flurry damage = (3/4).X, Flurry Swing time = (2/3).4/3 = 8/9

So in 8 seconds you will swing 9 times.

So in a standard period with flurry you will deal 6 3/4 X

-------

So you gain .75X damage per 8 seconds. This will cost you 8 energy (obviosuly rounded as its actually in 5 seconds blocks but the principle is 1 energy per second).

I believe you gain adrenalin at 1 adrenalin per hit so ever 8 seconds gain gain an extra 3 adrenalin.

-------

Now the real question is whether 0.75X and 3 exta adrenalin is worth 8 energy...

What can you do with 8 energy? You can power attack 1 3/5 times this would deal 41 3/5 damage. So you have 8X + 41 3/5 damage per period. However you also have 6 adrenalin (6/8 of a galraths slash) this gives 24 damage. This is a total of 8X +65 3/5.

If you used Galraths Slash you would deal 35 5/9. So thats a total of 8.75X + 35 5/9

So fundamentally the question is:

65 2/5 - 35 5/9 > or < 0.75X

So is X < or > that 40

I think we can say that the average damage is not going to be 40 per hit. Therefore it would appear that the basic damage is not as much if you use flurry, from a purely DPS standpoint.

However if you factor in different skills, health and energy gained from hitting then you might totally change things.

I might come back and do some more work on this at a later date.

ps i probably made a mistake somewhere so please point it out if i did!

Infact just one more quick calc:

3 extra energy = 15 3/5 (from power attack)

This makes it: 65 2/5 - 35 5/9 - 15 3/5 > or < 0.75X

19 < or > X

You probably could get the average damage to be this infact. So with a Zelous Hilt the DPS is better with flurry...

Obviously if different skills are used then you probably get a different answer but its something to think about...

Savio · Jan 31, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murder In China

Swing time is 1.33 seconds without flurry,...

Yep, Murder's correct, assuming you're using an Axe or Sword; Hammers are 1.75 seconds per attack. Under 33% IAS the time for a swing for Axe/Sword is 1.00 second per attack and Hammer is 1.31 seconds per attack.

Quote:

...and you forgot to factor in mana regeneration.

There is no energy regen in this situation because of the -1 from Zealous and -1 from Live Vicariously.

Live Vicariously and Vigorous Spirit give the same amount of health per hit, so why Vigorous Spirit gets double in those calculations is beyond me. Unless you mean LV plus VS, which somewhat doesn't make sense.

Making up numbers doesn't mean anything, especially if you get the base numbers wrong. There's an Isle of the Nameless now where you can easily check up numbers on lifeless (but fleshy and Bleeding?) wooden barrels.

Now, because I'm bored and got nothing better to do, some actual numbers of just regular hack n' slash with no stance, Flurry, and Frenzy:

Stats:
Zealous PvP Axe of Enchanting, Vampiric PvP Axe of Enchanting

455 max health (500 with a +45 health while enchanted Shield)
26 max energy (38 with a +12 Healing Ankh)
9 Healing Prayers
9+1 Strength
12+1+3 Axe Mastery
0+1 Tactics

Target opponent: Suit of 60 Armor
Time: 60 seconds after start of first attack; not counting precasts of enchantments, that would be 45 swings with no IAS and 68 with IAS, rounding up. For some setups a recast of VS is needed and takes up one swing.
Average damage my test character dealt: 36.95, rounded to 37 for simplification. Swords would be slightly lower, hammers would be higher but they attack slower.

Calculations:

Code:

           |        No IAS        |        Flurry        |        Frenzy        
           | Damage  | HP   | En  | Damage  | HP   | En  | Damage  | HP   | En  
-----------+---------+------+-----+---------+------+-----+---------+------+-----
Zeal       | 1628.00 |    0 |  64 | 1859.25 |    0 |  27 | 2479.00 |    0 |  47 
Zeal+VS    | 1628.00 |  405 |  54 | 1859.25 |  612 |  17 | 2479.00 |  612 |  37 
Zeal+LV+VS | 1628.00 |  801 |  29 | 1859.25 | 1215 |  -8 | 2479.00 | 1215 |  12 
Vamp       | 1800.00 |   15 |  40 | 2091.00 |   84 | -20 | 2720.00 |   84 |   0 
Vamp+VS    | 1760.00 |  417 |  30 | 2060.25 |  693 | -30 | 2680.00 |  693 | -10 
Vamp+LV+VS | 1760.00 |  813 |   5 | 2060.25 | 1296 | -55 | 2680.00 | 1296 | -35

Damage is total damage given (weapon damage + life steal damage), HP is health gained (enchants + life steal - Vamp degen), and En is energy gained (Zealous + energy regen - energy costs of skills). Damage can vary, but the health and energy gain is the same regardless.

So what do we learn? (Not that some of us didn't already know this.)

Frenzy is more energy efficient than Flurry, not to mention doing 33% more damage (that's 600 damage over a single minute.) EnergyStar would approve. At least Flurry does 14% more damage than no IAS; then again, Frenzy does 50% more than no IAS.
LV when stacked with VS hampers any Warriors using any other energy skills; you can say goodbye to Sprint, Charge, Gale, and anything else. Seriously, would you rather have another 600 health (on top of the 600-700 you already get from VS plus Vamp) or another 25 energy to work with?
You can squeak by on Zealous and Flurry if you don't use a lot of energy skills; there's a good chance you will, especially in this case with LV and VS. Flurry and Vampiric definitely isn't sustainable.
Incidentally, when Flurry, Tiger's Fury, Frenzy and the like say 33% faster, it's referring to how long it takes for an attack, or seconds per attack. Under Flurry, a swing takes (2/3) * (4/3 seconds/attack) = 8/9 seconds/attack, or 9 attacks/8 seconds, which means you get 9 attacks in the time it takes to get 6 normally. Lightbulb somewhat explains this.

We could toss Adrenaline into the mix, but it's probably better covered somewhere else (plus I'm lazy and don't feel like working it out.) The IAS’s, Flurry and Frenzy, will both benefit from Adrenaline gain/damage, but Frenzy still does 33% more base damage than Flurry.

Murder In China · Jan 31, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

I missed the part about Live Vicariously.

Rychek · Jan 31, 2006, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

Yep, Murder's correct, assuming you're using an Axe or Sword; Hammers are 1.75 seconds per attack. Under 33% IAS the time for a swing for Axe/Sword is 1.00 second per attack and Hammer is 1.31 seconds per attack.

Because we are using percentages, having the exact numbers is not needed to get a general idea of whats going on, which is why I listed the damage modifier of 1.121. Which wouldn't change.

Quote:

Live Vicariously and Vigorous Spirit give the same amount of health per hit, so why Vigorous Spirit gets double in those calculations is beyond me. Unless you mean LV plus VS, which somewhat doesn't make sense.

Indeed it means using both, Im not sure why that doesn't make sense to you. It seems like a viable idea given that VS is a particularly small mana cost for 30 seconds.

Quote:

Making up numbers doesn't mean anything, especially if you get the base numbers wrong. There's an Isle of the Nameless now where you can easily check up numbers on lifeless (but fleshy and Bleeding?) wooden barrels.

Again, the skill changes percentages, so the modifiers remain the same regardless of the actual numbers.

Quote:

[*]Frenzy is more energy efficient than Flurry, not to mention doing 33% more damage (that's 600 damage over a single minute.) EnergyStar would approve. At least Flurry does 14% more damage than no IAS; then again, Frenzy does 50% more than no IAS.[*]LV when stacked with VS hampers any Warriors using any other energy skills; you can say goodbye to Sprint, Charge, Gale, and anything else. Seriously, would you rather have another 600 health (on top of the 600-700 you already get from VS plus Vamp) or another 25 energy to work with?[*]You can squeak by on Zealous and Flurry if you don't use a lot of energy skills; there's a good chance you will, especially in this case with LV and VS. Flurry and Vampiric definitely isn't sustainable.

Sorry I didn't say it in my first post (though I did mention it later) but I was looking at this from a pve perspective, thus frenzy means death in a lot of situations. Of course it is more effecient for pure damage as it doesn't short you on dmg and with proper skills it lasts longer for the same energy.

LV and VS does NOT hamper your energy when you consider that VS costs 5 energy and lasts for 30 seconds. when you look at how much energy is gained from zealous + cyclone axe, you can basically keep flurry, VS, and LV going full time.

"Seriously, would you rather have another 600 health (on top of the 600-700 you already get from VS plus Vamp) or another 25 energy to work with?"

In short? I wouldn't. Thats what I said at the end of my first post. It was just an idea, I looked into it, and decided it wasn't good enough.